1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,000
I was going to ask you, did you ever complete and get typed out your results of the investigation

2
00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:08,000
of the 14th?

3
00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:12,000
Just finish typing it tonight and I'm going to get her on the Mimograph tomorrow.

4
00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:13,000
Oh good, good.

5
00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:19,000
I did, I spent all day one day out of the FAA flight service center in Auburn.

6
00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:20,000
All right.

7
00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:21,000
How'd you make out?

8
00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:25,000
Well, I finally got through the tape and they let me listen to the tape that night.

9
00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:32,000
Then they also let me run off the copy of it and I have conditional permission to broadcast

10
00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:37,000
and what I have to do now to get the final permission is they would like to hear what

11
00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:38,000
we're going to do with it.

12
00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:39,000
Nice.

13
00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:43,000
And their concern naturally is that we don't make misuse of the tape.

14
00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:44,000
Right.

15
00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,000
In other words, give somebody the impression of something that didn't happen.

16
00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:47,000
Right.

17
00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:51,000
So I still have yet to type out the rest of the story and what I'm going to do is just

18
00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:57,000
do a recreation of that night and let people know what happened at what time.

19
00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:03,000
And it's interesting that one of the supervisors out there who was kind of handling me that

20
00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:08,000
day, as you say, well, he just tried to prove through the whole thing and I was very

21
00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:11,000
nothing and he listened to the tape and there was nothing on there.

22
00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:13,000
The tape is very significant.

23
00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:16,000
There were at least, I can't remember, I got all the information at home.

24
00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:20,000
There were four or five aircraft involved.

25
00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,000
And here's how it all developed.

26
00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:24,000
If you're interested, do it.

27
00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:25,000
Definitely.

28
00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:26,000
Okay.

29
00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:27,000
Here's how it all developed.

30
00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:29,000
The first call came in about 748.

31
00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:34,000
Now, when I say the first call, I'm saying the first call regarding this McKenna thing.

32
00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:35,000
Yes.

33
00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:40,000
Earlier in the evening, they had had reports of what had been described evidently by pilots

34
00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:48,000
as high altitude meteor showers, which are evidently a fairly common occurrence.

35
00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:49,000
Yes.

36
00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:53,000
And now these reports were about five o'clock that night.

37
00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:58,000
Almost 748 on the nose, if I recall correctly from my intro.

38
00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:06,000
The first report came in from a small private craft identifying himself on the tape as 20X-ray.

39
00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:12,000
And he was flying in that area near McKenna, flying in a, what was it, a southern leader?

40
00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:13,000
No.

41
00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:18,000
Well, I forget the direction, but he was, you know, approaching the Seattle Flight Services

42
00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,000
area that they're responsible for.

43
00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:21,000
Yes.

44
00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,000
And he called in, and he says, 20X-ray calling Seattle Flight Center.

45
00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:29,000
It looked like something just exploded off my right wing tip.

46
00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:33,000
And they asked him to look like an aircraft, and he said he couldn't tell.

47
00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:38,000
And then a united commercial jet evidently flying up from Portland.

48
00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:43,000
Captain called in and says this is a united flight, whatever it was.

49
00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:48,000
Reaffirming that Seattle Flight Center, all three of us saw it.

50
00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:53,000
It appeared to look like it was an explosion either on the ground or I think or a low level elevation.

51
00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:59,000
And then 20X-ray butts back in and says, well, it was often, it was high in the sky when I saw it.

52
00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:04,000
Okay, at this point Seattle Flight Center thinks that maybe a plane might have gone down.

53
00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:08,000
Oh, at this time they're describing what appear to be fires down below.

54
00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:09,000
Yes.

55
00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:11,000
No, wait, I take that back.

56
00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:12,000
I take that back.

57
00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:13,000
That's later.

58
00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:22,000
So at this point the FAA is concerned that a plane might be down, and so they asked him about fuselage and, you know, and did it look like a plane or whatever.

59
00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:30,000
Then Seattle Flight asks the United Pilot if he can look over on his left because he is flying parallel to 20X-ray.

60
00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:32,000
So he saw this on his right wing tip.

61
00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:37,000
So he asked the United Pilot who is flying in a parallel direction, he'll make, you know, quite a distance apart.

62
00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:47,000
If he can look to his left and see anything on the ground, to which he says, yeah, it looks like three fires down there, one big going and smaller ones around it.

63
00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:55,000
Okay, at this point, another, around this point, another private craft comes in.

64
00:03:55,000 --> 00:04:00,000
And says, hey, I heard you guys talking about this fireball thing that I saw to my east.

65
00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:06,000
And then Seattle Flight comes on and says, oh, sure, that would be in a different direction from where you're at.

66
00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:13,000
And he comes back on, very distorted, but you can make him out and he says, well, I saw a fireball, a fireball for all of this guy.

67
00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:14,000
Okay.

68
00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:19,000
So then Seattle Flight Center starts getting some sporadic EOT transmissions.

69
00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:20,000
You know what those are?

70
00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:21,000
No.

71
00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:24,000
Okay, that's an emergency locator transmitter.

72
00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:30,000
And that is FAA, all planes are required by law to carry these things.

73
00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:37,000
And upon impact, they go off and give off a signal that they're working right, so that rescue craft can find it down plane.

74
00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:46,000
So they start getting some sporadic emissions, which is a fairly common occurrence, but nevertheless, they never take any chances.

75
00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:47,000
You know?

76
00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:48,000
Yes.

77
00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:56,000
So they try to find, you know, try to determine, try to find out, you know, sometimes a pilot will jam something against one and they'll go off and all sorts of stuff.

78
00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:03,000
So at this point with what the pilots saw and the sporadic beats, they're really kind of thinking a plane might be down here.

79
00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:07,000
So then there is another private craft.

80
00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:17,000
Oh, by the way, and then during this time, there was another commercial liner, I believe it was here, you know, a Northwest Orient, who also confirmed the fire on the ground.

81
00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:19,000
Okay.

82
00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,000
Then they go on by the rudder business.

83
00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:28,000
The United pilot has asked to swoop down as low as he can see and tell him what he sees.

84
00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:38,000
So at an elevation of 10,000 feet and descending, he gives his description of the fires below, you know, he's still pretty high up in the air.

85
00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:47,000
And he then plots his, he gives the Seattle Flight Center his coordinates so that they can plot the area where this thing is.

86
00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:48,000
Yes.

87
00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:49,000
Okay.

88
00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,000
So then they're gone.

89
00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:56,000
Then another private craft, I believe he's identified as Gross 54, comes onto the scene.

90
00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:06,000
He tells them, he tells them they can, he can see the fire and stuff.

91
00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:15,000
And they ask him, now they're taking heavy hits of planes down this time, they ask him if he's kind enough to get down in and see if he can take a look.

92
00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:16,000
Okay.

93
00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:18,000
He does.

94
00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:30,000
And now at this point, the only two people who got fairly close to what it was on the ground was this guy, and I forget his identification, what he identified himself with.

95
00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:40,000
I think it was 26 Quebec, 26 Quebec, and later on, the Fort Lewis pilot, were the only two guys that got in low enough, right?

96
00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:42,000
Well, this is what happened.

97
00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:45,000
Anyway, the other four planes were up pretty high.

98
00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:48,000
But 26 Quebec says, yeah, he'll get out and take a look.

99
00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:52,000
So I guess he swoops down to about, over 4,000 feet or something.

100
00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:58,000
And Hormby Hone, he gives the same, almost to a T, the same description that he gave the military pilot.

101
00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:05,000
He goes on and says, yeah, he says, whatever it was, whatever it hit, must have gone in vertical.

102
00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,000
He says, if it was a plane, it went in vertical.

103
00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:13,000
Because it looks like there's some sort of a, looks like it cut it out of the area, looks like kerosene or some kind of fuel burning.

104
00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:18,000
Yeah, it says, what else can you say?

105
00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:26,000
He says, oh, this is the point where he says, I've seen a lot of flash fires, and that's no flash fire.

106
00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,000
He says, the area's pretty gutted out down there.

107
00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:33,000
And I can't remember if he used the word crater or not.

108
00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:42,000
But it was, I mean, it was obvious to him, at 3 or 4,000 feet, that it was not a flash fire and that there was some kind of a hole in the ground.

109
00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,000
Or what appeared to be a hole.

110
00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:50,000
Which is the same description that he gave, and his, the three crewmen in the military pilot,

111
00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:52,000
that's the conclusion they came to.

112
00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:53,000
That it was some sort of a crater.

113
00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:58,000
And this guy in 2-6 Quebec, where the only pilots that night went down close enough to get any kind of a look at it.

114
00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:01,000
And their descriptions match up almost to a tee.

115
00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,000
That is good.

116
00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:08,000
And the next thing I found out, the reason why nobody found this, and I think it's a good idea,

117
00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:09,000
is that it wasn't a flash fire.

118
00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,000
It was a flash fire.

119
00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:13,000
It was a flash fire.

120
00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:17,000
But we didn't know, we didn't know what the reason was.

121
00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:21,400
The next thing I found out, the reason why nobody found it the next day, including us,

122
00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:23,400
is that we were looking in the wrong area.

123
00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:26,240
Should you have been looking further north?

124
00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:32,440
No, well we were, north, northwest, of where, according to this United Airlines pilot, he

125
00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:34,440
saw this thing.

126
00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:38,680
And the elevation of the peaks around there does not correspond with the area that we were

127
00:08:38,680 --> 00:08:39,680
looking in.

128
00:08:39,680 --> 00:08:43,480
Would that put in about 13 miles south of McKenna, the original, where they should have been

129
00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:44,480
looking?

130
00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:52,560
Well, I've got the coordinates at home and I can't, I think, yeah, that sounds about

131
00:08:52,560 --> 00:08:53,560
right.

132
00:08:53,560 --> 00:08:56,560
I've got the coordinates in pilot talk.

133
00:08:56,560 --> 00:08:59,720
I don't know physically where that place is at.

134
00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:03,480
I know I've got the coordinates written down in pilot lingo.

135
00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:10,640
But I do know that we were a good four to five statute mile out of that area.

136
00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:16,640
We should have looked, see what's opposite of northwest, south, southeast?

137
00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:17,640
Yeah.

138
00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,640
Okay, we should have looked more south, southeast.

139
00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:26,240
Well, the reason I mentioned that was because when I talked to FAA information officer,

140
00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:29,640
he gave me about four different locations that they had.

141
00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:34,640
Well, I'll tell you, as far as I can determine, we were down there the next day in a helicopter

142
00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:39,640
and the only other, there were two other helicopters, the Fort Lewis Sheriff's Office and I think

143
00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:45,640
a new AP had a helicopter down there and we were all looking in the same area, which

144
00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:50,640
is not the right place according to this United pilot who radiated in his location at the

145
00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,640
time he was directly over this thing.

146
00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:59,640
Now, granted, he was descending at the time he gave his location over this thing, but

147
00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:03,640
they tell me at the FAA that would have put us within a mile of it.

148
00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:06,640
Okay, here's an important point too.

149
00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:12,640
I was reading some statements made by some of the astronomers who came out here to investigate

150
00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:19,640
this thing and they all stated to the man that there is no case on history where a meteor

151
00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:22,640
has ever struck the earth and started a fire.

152
00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:28,640
Well, that kind of set me back a little bit, you know.

153
00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:30,640
I'd never heard of that before.

154
00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:32,640
Hmm.

155
00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:38,640
So what if something struck down there, plowed in by a, it wasn't a meteor.

156
00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:48,640
Well, you know, I would tend to think, I would tend to think that,

157
00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:55,640
if I went for the description that you gave and this guy in two or six quarebec gave, I would,

158
00:10:55,640 --> 00:11:01,640
I would tend to, I think it was a flash fire, you know, because I've been thinking about that too

159
00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:06,640
and I actually agree that if a meteor probably hit, you know, number one, as you said,

160
00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:09,640
it would have registered on the sensors for the seismograph.

161
00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:10,640
Oh, yes.

162
00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:14,640
Number two, it probably would have caused quite a jolt around there, you know,

163
00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,640
if there was any kind of a massive object.

164
00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,640
Well, every person within 25 miles would have felt it.

165
00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:24,640
And the only thing, one of the other possibilities is...

166
00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:29,640
That's why I was interested in getting a hold of that.

167
00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:32,640
I tried, I didn't have any success.

168
00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:37,640
I wanted to find out whether he really believed he was looking at a crater.

169
00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:39,640
Oh, I told you I'd talked to him the second time, didn't I?

170
00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:40,640
Yes.

171
00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:44,640
And he told me again the second time, the way they came to the conclusion that it was a crater,

172
00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:48,640
was that they had passed three flash fires before they got to this one.

173
00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,640
And, you know, I was thinking, I don't know,

174
00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:53,640
before they got to this one.

175
00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:59,640
And to see him and the three other guys who were aboard, it looked like a crater.

176
00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:00,640
Uh-huh.

177
00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:03,640
And that's how they came to that conclusion, because it didn't look like the other one.

178
00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:07,640
It was the top of the Mossy Rock, Stenbar area.

179
00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:08,640
Uh-huh.

180
00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:14,640
And they had climbed this hill so they could get a good view of the area around it, looking for deer.

181
00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:17,640
And they got to the top of the hill and they looked north,

182
00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:24,640
and here he says it was almost in a straight line between Mossy Rock and Stenbar.

183
00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:32,640
And he figured off into the Stenbar area was this huge glowing white object hovering above this hill,

184
00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:34,640
right over the treetops.

185
00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:35,640
Uh-huh.

186
00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:39,640
And they watched the thing for about seven minutes.

187
00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:44,640
He said that it remained stationary for several minutes, and then it started moving upward.

188
00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:53,640
He finally got the binoculars on the thing, and he said it was so big that it took in about three-fourths of the binocular view.

189
00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:54,640
And it moved off to the...

190
00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:56,640
Well, he must have been missed that pretty good shot.

191
00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:57,640
I could pretty good look at it.

192
00:12:57,640 --> 00:12:58,640
Yes, very definitely.

193
00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:06,640
He said there was a rotating band around the center of the object, and as it moved upward, it changed from white to pink to red.

194
00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:13,640
And as it built up speed, it got up to a bright red and then moved off to the southwest.

195
00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:15,640
Did he notice any windows or anything?

196
00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,640
No. Just the light effect around it.

197
00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:21,640
But it moved out of the Stenbar area.

198
00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:22,640
I'm wondering, you know...

199
00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,640
How high did he say about the treetops it was?

200
00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:27,640
Right at the treetops.

201
00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:29,640
Uh-huh.

202
00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:31,640
I haven't had a chance to get back to him.

203
00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:34,640
He was calling from the job.

204
00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:36,640
He works for Warehauser.

205
00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:37,640
Uh-huh.

206
00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:46,640
And he was calling from the field, apparently, because he and his boss had worked all morning trying to find an organization to report this to.

207
00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:47,640
Uh-huh.

208
00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:53,640
And he finally got through to us, and I'm going to call back this week to his home.

209
00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:55,640
He'll be back out of the field, apparently.

210
00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:59,640
He works with research of some kind, out in the forest.

211
00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:09,640
And I'll go into this a little deeper with him regarding the possibility that this thing could have been sitting on the ground in that area.

212
00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:11,640
But...

213
00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:13,640
It's great. Yeah.

214
00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:17,640
Oh, yeah. Hold on a second.

215
00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:20,640
The more possible there is, the possibilities I come up with.

216
00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:24,640
You know, if you look at all of the possibilities,

217
00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:31,640
you have to include that if there was a crater, there is a possibility, because of the logging and stuff in that area,

218
00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:33,640
somebody may have gotten a hold of some dynamite.

219
00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:35,640
They did some kits, right?

220
00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:36,640
Lots of them.

221
00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:40,640
You know, they could have just blown a goddamn hole in the ground, you know, out in the woods,

222
00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:44,640
so nobody would get hurt just to, you know, blow up some dynamite.

223
00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:50,640
They could have just thrown about 10 sticks in and just a little long fuse and got the hell out,

224
00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:53,640
and just blew a hell of a hole in the woods out there.

225
00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:58,640
But considering the fact that it's super rugged territory, it's not very likely that they'll...

226
00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,640
That's right. You always have to look at that.

227
00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:10,640
That particular case there is only part of the picture, because we know there were five objects that night,

228
00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:20,640
five separate objects at different times and different locations, and this will show up on the map I'm going to send you.

229
00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:25,640
And it all started just about a little after 5 p.m.

230
00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:31,640
And these objects, every one of them, we're traveling with the exception of the one down by Sinbar,

231
00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:37,640
and every one of them we're traveling in a horizontal trajectory, and this is an extreme rarity for any...

232
00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:39,640
Well, y'all, yes, look at this, too.

233
00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:43,640
It could be possibly the working in much...

234
00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:45,640
What's his name?

235
00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:47,640
Two, six Quebec, whatever.

236
00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:52,640
What they were over and over could have been a slash wire, a large one,

237
00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:57,640
or it could have been a slash wire where they'd, you know, maybe a bowler or a dugout of big hole

238
00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:02,640
to keep it from spreading around or something, you know.

239
00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:04,640
I just...

240
00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:09,640
You know, there's just so many possibilities of what it could be.

241
00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,640
It's just, you know, it's mind-boggling.

242
00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:14,640
Oh, sure.

243
00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,640
And it could also be something sitting on the ground.

244
00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:24,640
Yeah, you know, I'm so damn discouraged about this thing because it blew $1,000 with the helicopter,

245
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:28,640
I was in the wrong goddamn area, and I just know that, you know,

246
00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:32,640
somebody's probably gotten to this thing long before now.

247
00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,640
Whatever, you know, whatever it was.

248
00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:39,640
And I'm just debating on whether to keep trying to get in there and take a look at it.

249
00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:43,640
See, the big problem on that particular case was the lack of witnesses on the ground

250
00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,640
to get any kind of a triangulation.

251
00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:52,640
And I only know of four, and this is rare, extremely rare for anything

252
00:16:52,640 --> 00:17:00,640
that spectacular coming out of the sky, even in a desolate area like that.

253
00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:02,640
Hey, Bob, do you know...

254
00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:07,640
I don't know if you catch...you ever catch the Tomorrow program on NBC?

255
00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:08,640
Occasionally.

256
00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:13,640
They had an hour one night on UFOs recently, or maybe a couple of months ago.

257
00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,640
That's when the airline pilot was on, or the ex-military pilot.

258
00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:18,640
I guess it was the airline pilot.

259
00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:19,640
I believe it was.

260
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,640
He also had a producer on from this NBC specialist coming up.

261
00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:24,640
Right.

262
00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:35,640
Okay, you recall him talking about this number, this toll-free number that some government organization, I believe...

263
00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:40,640
That's Alan Heineck's organization, Center for UFO Studies.

264
00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,640
Yeah, in other words, there are only a few agencies in various areas that have this thing.

265
00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:46,640
It's not a public number.

266
00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:48,640
Yeah, it's just for law enforcement agencies.

267
00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:50,640
Yeah, if you're able to get your hands on that number.

268
00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,640
Sure, hang on.

269
00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:55,640
And where is that? What city is that?

270
00:17:55,640 --> 00:18:04,640
That would be at Sin...let's see, it's in Illinois, the state of Illinois.

271
00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:06,640
It's in Seventhsden.

272
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:08,640
And what's the organization?

273
00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:13,640
Center for UFO Studies.

274
00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:17,640
Do they depend on you for some of their information?

275
00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,640
Oh yes, any organization, they ask to feed to them.

276
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:24,640
Did you have to talk to them about this incident?

277
00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:28,640
One of the investigators called him.

278
00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:30,640
And I see one of your people.

279
00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:35,640
And had they received any calls from any law enforcement agencies about this thing?

280
00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:38,640
Up to that time, they received nothing.

281
00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,640
But after your investigator called, had they gotten anything from anybody?

282
00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:42,640
No.

283
00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:44,640
In other words, nobody called him about this thing?

284
00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:45,640
Not to our knowledge.

285
00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:54,640
You see, the problem here is that this thing didn't break into the open until the McKinness story came out.

286
00:18:54,640 --> 00:19:00,640
And all the activity that preceded was just swept under the rug.

287
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:09,640
In fact, I think the whole McKinness story was just swept under the rug, it had been for KJR.

288
00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:14,640
That's the sad story of the UFO subject.

289
00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:22,640
There's another number you might want to chat, and that's the Department of Emergency Services in Olympia.

290
00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:34,640
The reason I'm giving you this is they take the UFO reports, but the emergency number is...

291
00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:35,640
That's where?

292
00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:37,640
It's in Olympia.

293
00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:40,640
And what are they hesitant about?

294
00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:44,640
Well, they handle the reports through civil defense.

295
00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:46,640
Thank you.

296
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:52,640
Well, you know what I'll tell you, I got one last shot at this thing down at McKinness.

297
00:19:52,640 --> 00:20:00,640
That is, I've talked to Wiggins' CO about the chance of them, one of their training flights,

298
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:08,640
letting me go along with him and his helicopter, and diverting to that area to see if he could find it once again.

299
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:18,640
And he has. They gave me a conditional OK, and he could do that if, like for example, I was doing a story on their, you know,

300
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,640
mass operations down there, they could do that, which I said there's no problem.

301
00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:27,640
So far, I haven't heard back from him, and I was going to get McCall here pretty soon, and I hadn't had a chance to.

302
00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:32,640
But that's about my last shot. You've got to get in there with some sort of an aircraft, that's all there is to it.

303
00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:34,640
Well, that's the only way.

304
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:39,640
I know that the station isn't about to go for any more helicopters.

305
00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:45,640
Well, I thought it was mid-summer, it'd be a different story, you could get the party together and walk in and kind of scar the area.

306
00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:52,640
Well, I'll tell you, Bob, you could walk in every river. I mean, it's really, it's so thick in places.

307
00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:57,640
I mean, there's a lot of logging roads, but it's so thick that you could be 10 feet away from something there,

308
00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,640
and all that huge forest land and not see it.

309
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:01,640
Right.

310
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:05,640
It's a big waste of time, unless you had a pretty well-ten pointed.

311
00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:11,640
Yeah, and so anyway, so that's that.

312
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:19,640
There's one thing I want to find out. If we get a UFO scoop story, how do we get a hold of you if you're not working?

313
00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:23,640
Yeah, this damn thing, God, I'll tell you, it just, it irks me.

314
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:29,640
I mean, it irks me that somehow, I want to believe that nobody did it on purpose,

315
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:34,640
but somehow we just didn't get the right stuff, you know, the right information to get on there and look for it.

316
00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:35,640
It just really irks me.

317
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:42,640
Well, let me put it this way. If something came out of the sky and that thing was tracked by McCourt radar.

318
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:44,640
Which they say it wasn't.

319
00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:50,640
Yeah, which says possible that it was.

320
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:51,640
Uh-huh.

321
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:56,640
If it was, then they knew that there was something on the ground or an unknown on the ground.

322
00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:01,640
They would have sent the search parties elsewhere.

323
00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:08,640
Well, that occurred to me too, but why would they, you know, only divert us by about four or five miles?

324
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:13,640
Why not 10 or 15 to really keep us away from it, you know, or 20 or 30, you know?

325
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:17,640
Well, with that kind of terrain and that kind of weather,

326
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:23,640
you were quite away south to the original position of 13 miles south of McKinnon.

327
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:25,640
Yeah.

328
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,640
I kind of got.

329
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:30,640
Well.

330
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:37,640
But like I said, if they could send a helicopter over there with infrared sensing equipment,

331
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:46,640
any area where they thought something came down, and even if it had left, if it had crashed or if it had landed and left, they would have known about it.

332
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:52,640
Hmm.

333
00:22:52,640 --> 00:23:00,640
So I think it's just going to end up being another one of those mysteries.

334
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:02,640
Yeah, it's possible.

335
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:08,640
And it's also possible that the Air Force didn't track anything, that nobody tracked anything.

336
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:17,640
And that all the Army knew about it was that Morgan had been diverted on a training flight because the FAA thought a plane might have gone down.

337
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:24,640
And he went out there and he saw a flash fire, but no fuselage or anything, so he came back and they didn't drop it that.

338
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:36,640
You know, I mean, it's also possible that they, you know, they're pretty quick to cast off things too.

339
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:38,640
There you go.

340
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:40,640
Policy, policy.

341
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:42,640
Yeah.

342
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:46,640
Well, it's not for you.

343
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:50,640
Well, it won't be the last incident like that to happen around here.

344
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:52,640
By the way, Bob, just a diverting for a second.

345
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:58,640
Did your man ever check out those photographs from the family?

346
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:06,640
He presented them to some people who were supposed to be photographic experts or knowledgeable about photography.

347
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,640
And they said that they couldn't do a thing really.

348
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:18,640
They look suspicious, but they couldn't do a thing unless they had the negatives and had a chance to wash the negatives out and inspect them.

349
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:19,640
Yeah, right.

350
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,640
Had it gone anything beyond that point?

351
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:22,640
No.

352
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:24,640
Okay.

353
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:28,640
Why, did they have to say why they look suspicious?

354
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,640
Perfection.

355
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:31,640
Too good a shot, man.

356
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:49,640
Yeah, perfection and the fact that the young man who took the picture was a student of photography in school and had all the equipment and so forth to do would have to be done to get pictures like that.

357
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:50,640
But?

358
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,640
Well, I thought they were pretty good shots myself.

359
00:24:53,640 --> 00:25:03,640
But the only thing that keeps knowing about me about that is that I just don't see the mother and the daughter and the son coming in here.

360
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:07,640
And...

361
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:09,640
You have a good story.

362
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:11,640
Yeah, I mean, they got no money.

363
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,640
They got hardly any PR out of it.

364
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,640
And the only reason they had called here, because, you know, we had done one story.

365
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:25,640
Well, actually we did a story one night about a couple of people who saw something near their area.

366
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:33,640
I mean, it called in to say, you know, just a couple of weeks before, my daughter saw this thing in the sky and she came home and got me and my son.

367
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,640
And I said, my son grabbed his camera and we went back and he got a couple of pictures of it, you know.

368
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:38,640
Right.

369
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,640
So it kind of evolved from that.

370
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,640
Well, that leaves the door open.

371
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:54,640
Yeah, God, I wish, if he had a chance to talk to that guy, I wish he'd, you know, see if he could kind of run that down and at least confirm whether or not those negatives are phony.

372
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,640
Or whether, you know, whether the pictures are phony.

373
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:05,640
I just was so impressed by their, oh, how would you say it, their average American-ish, you know.

374
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:11,640
I mean, you couldn't have found pretty more average blue collar type people, I don't think.

375
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:13,640
Yes.

376
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:25,640
I know that he was, he was working on that and this thing of the 14 came along and that really threw his, oh, in fact, because we've been really hitting that pretty hard.

377
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:33,640
But I'll get him on that again and see if we can't get over those negatives and get some results on it.

378
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:46,640
I'm kicking around the idea that maybe I could put together, you know, with the reports with the tapes of the, the tapes I have at the FAA flight control center that night.

379
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:47,640
Yes.

380
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,640
Kicking around the idea, maybe it might not be a bad idea to put a half hour program together.

381
00:26:51,640 --> 00:27:16,640
I think that was really a special night telling you.

382
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:22,640
Yeah, it was odd. You know, I must admit, and I'm, I like a lot of other people are attracted by oddities.

383
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:37,640
And I was, the most, the thing that I'm most amazed about, most amazed about is, is that couple from Tacoma, whose name I can recall now, who called me and, you know, there's a conversation between, I guess it was,

384
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:47,640
and the Lewis County Sheriff's Office had splashed over and they had heard, they had heard everything right on.

385
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,640
I found out later except the part about the ground troops moving in.

386
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:53,640
Yeah, that was really great.

387
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:57,640
And she was, and she was damn sure that that's what she heard.

388
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:05,640
And naturally, as I, when I talk later with the Lewis County Sheriff's Office, I found out that that's what the conversation had been.

389
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:06,640
Yeah.

390
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:20,640
You know, the thing that is, really put a lot of support under the events of that night, or at least one of the major events of that was the object that passed from the northwest to the southeast.

391
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:33,640
I got several letters from people up on Woodby Island and several from the Navy personnel up there, including the commander of a naval flight, which had just landed.

392
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,640
And they were parked on the runway at the time.

393
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,640
And he was looking due north. He gave all the proper coordinates.

394
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:47,640
And he said when this object came in view, it moved across the sky from northwest to southeast.

395
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:49,640
They watched and watched and watched and watched.

396
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:55,640
He said they watched that thing from four to five minutes. He was timing it with his clock.

397
00:28:55,640 --> 00:29:00,640
And he said, he's never seen anything like it.

398
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,640
Well, I'll be there.

399
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:17,640
And then I got one of our contacts up in Snohomish County that got a chance to talk to a lot of the sheriff's deputies that were looking for the escaped prisoners up on Commina Island at the time.

400
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:27,640
And that was another object in itself there. That thing passed from due north to straight south right over Commina Island.

401
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:40,640
Very slow. In fact, the one officer who first spotted it in the northern sky, he says at first it was two brilliant orange lights hanging in the sky.

402
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:45,640
And then they expanded and merged.

403
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,640
And then the things started to move and the sparks started flying out the back.

404
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:57,640
And then you can hear she came due south right over the island and heading due south towards Seattle.

405
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:02,640
And that's where that copter pilot, McKenna, picked it up.

406
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:07,640
And then that student of Queen Anne Hill.

407
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,640
I'll be there.

408
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:21,640
Well, the next step is, I guess, is to see if I can get a clear day and see if the Air Force will let me go on a helicopter with you.

409
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,640
He said he'd like to go out there again. See what it was.

410
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:29,640
Oh, that would be great. Get a nice clear day. Wow.

411
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,640
Well, well, I'll tell you.

412
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:37,640
Well, listen, since that happened, have you had any other reports of anything of any kind of nature?

413
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,640
No, things have been really quiet around here.

414
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:48,640
Well, there's a lot of, you know, kicking around the idea of maybe putting together a half hour program on that take, which you're interested in, aren't you?

415
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:49,640
Sure.

416
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:57,640
I don't care about the determining factor of time, about good time and after schedule everything to do it.

417
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,640
Well, I think that might be, you know, that might be kind of fun to do.

418
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,640
Well, your listeners are really interested in that subject anyway.

419
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:10,640
Oh, you betcha. Every time we ask them, I go, you know, crazy.

420
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:15,640
That thing was a thing on the Tacoma tonight is odd.

421
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,640
Did you ever call the two couples or a couple that gave you the phone number?

422
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:23,640
Oh, yes. The ones that were driving down towards Milton.

423
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,640
Well, she said there was a South of I-5 here at Tacoma.

424
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,640
Yeah, just entering Milton. Right, a little community there at Milton.

425
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:30,640
Did you talk to him?

426
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:31,640
Yes.

427
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:32,640
What did you think?

428
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:37,640
Well, I tell you, he said that this object was huge.

429
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:43,640
He said it was traveling under the clouds and that I asked him, well, what about the size?

430
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:45,640
How would you estimate the size?

431
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:54,640
And he said, well, you could take a car key, the round portion of the car key and hold it up to the sky and just hold it out.

432
00:31:54,640 --> 00:32:00,640
He says, that's about the size that thing was in the sky.

433
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,640
This is the method used for determining size.

434
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:10,640
And that would be just about as big as your thumb out there, end of your thumb.

435
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:11,640
That would be pretty good.

436
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:13,640
And that is big.

437
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:18,640
And he says it was low under the clouds.

438
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:24,640
And he said it came over the top to the car, almost the top, slightly to the west.

439
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:30,640
And that when it got out in front of them, it just clicked out, just like snapping off the light.

440
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:32,640
What color is it?

441
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:37,640
Blue, blue, green, blue, white.

442
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:46,640
So, but unfortunately the thing wasn't in sight long enough to really get any data out of it.

443
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:47,640
Well, that baffles me.

444
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:53,640
I mean, I just can't see why they wouldn't pick up stuff like that later.

445
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:54,640
But honestly, they do it.

446
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:55,640
Just tell me they don't.

447
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,640
I guess that's my, you know, it's always a possibility.

448
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:06,640
But then we get, you know, I got a call from the one guy who said he saw it was a shooting star.

449
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,640
And another guy said he saw it looked like a shooting star.

450
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:15,640
Well, in other words, there were more than, probably more than one or two people in sight.

451
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:21,640
In your experience, have you ever called anybody and on something like that?

452
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,640
Have I ever told you that they tracked anything?

453
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:31,640
No, no, this, there's very strict regulations regarding putting out that kind of information.

454
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:36,640
Not only for the military, but the FAA too.

455
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:38,640
You know, that's something I never did ask anybody.

456
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:44,640
I never did ask them if they, if I called there and asked them about that, if they could tell me that.

457
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:48,640
Something I should probably do.

458
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:52,640
Listen, Rob, we're looking forward to receiving your information on that.

459
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:54,640
Well, we'll try to have that in the mail tomorrow.

460
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:59,640
Yeah, and I'll let you know naturally if I decide to put a half hour thing together on that deal.

461
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:00,640
Great.

462
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:01,640
Okay?

463
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:02,640
Right.

464
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:03,640
Talk to you later.

465
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:04,640
Bye-bye.